Status of PHP-GTK

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Status of PHP-GTK

Eddie L. Hixson
Has this project become stale?  What is the future of php-gtk?  I hear
no chatter from the list.

Eddie


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Re: Status of PHP-GTK

Kasper Johansen-2
It would be such a shame, if it has. I really like this extension.

I am using it for both my work and as a hobby.


Eddie L. Hixson wrote:
> Has this project become stale?  What is the future of php-gtk?  I hear
> no chatter from the list.
>
> Eddie
>  


--
Med venlig hilsen
Kasper Johansen
Mail     : [hidden email]


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Re: Status of PHP-GTK

Madeleine D.-3
In reply to this post by Eddie L. Hixson


Not really stale at all, just quiet on this list.  Those who have the
skills are busy working on an update.  There's a lot of daily activity
via kksou.com, some via Gnope.org and even more via IRC.

I think part of the problem is the broken web site for gtk.php.net,
which sends people off in different directions, but so far, no luck on
getting fixed.

Madeleine D.




Eddie L. Hixson wrote:
> Has this project become stale?  What is the future of php-gtk?  I hear
> no chatter from the list.
>
> Eddie
>
>
>  

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Re: Status of PHP-GTK

Justin Martin-4
As well, the documentation is lacking, giving a feeling of brokenness. I
and a couple other people are working on bringing the documentation up
to date.

Lots of conversation goes on at #php-gtk on Freenode.

Thanks,
Justin Martin

Madeleine D. wrote:

>
>
> Not really stale at all, just quiet on this list.  Those who have the
> skills are busy working on an update.  There's a lot of daily activity
> via kksou.com, some via Gnope.org and even more via IRC.
>
> I think part of the problem is the broken web site for gtk.php.net,
> which sends people off in different directions, but so far, no luck on
> getting fixed.
>
> Madeleine D.
>
>
>
>
> Eddie L. Hixson wrote:
>> Has this project become stale?  What is the future of php-gtk?  I hear
>> no chatter from the list.
>>
>> Eddie
>>
>>
>>  

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Re: Status of PHP-GTK

Harald Thoeny
In reply to this post by Madeleine D.-3
the documentation on the website is a mess !

we had a thread on this list with frustrated doc writers....
myself is also waiting for a better doc system!

greetings

harald

Madeleine D. wrote:

>
>
> Not really stale at all, just quiet on this list.  Those who have the
> skills are busy working on an update.  There's a lot of daily activity
> via kksou.com, some via Gnope.org and even more via IRC.
>
> I think part of the problem is the broken web site for gtk.php.net,
> which sends people off in different directions, but so far, no luck on
> getting fixed.
>
> Madeleine D.
>
>
>
>
> Eddie L. Hixson wrote:
>> Has this project become stale?  What is the future of php-gtk?  I hear
>> no chatter from the list.
>>
>> Eddie
>>
>>
>>  
>

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Re: Status of PHP-GTK

Bob Majdak Jr-2
I always love how so many people say this and so few people have/willing
to donate the time to do something about it.

- bob.


Harald Thoeny wrote:

> the documentation on the website is a mess !
>
> we had a thread on this list with frustrated doc writers....
> myself is also waiting for a better doc system!
>
> greetings
>
> harald
>
> Madeleine D. wrote:
>>
>>
>> Not really stale at all, just quiet on this list.  Those who have the
>> skills are busy working on an update.  There's a lot of daily
>> activity via kksou.com, some via Gnope.org and even more via IRC.
>>
>> I think part of the problem is the broken web site for gtk.php.net,
>> which sends people off in different directions, but so far, no luck
>> on getting fixed.
>>
>> Madeleine D.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Eddie L. Hixson wrote:
>>> Has this project become stale?  What is the future of php-gtk?  I hear
>>> no chatter from the list.
>>>
>>> Eddie
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>
>


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Re: Status of PHP-GTK

Eddie L. Hixson
On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 08:40 -0400, Bob Majdak Jr wrote:
> I always love how so many people say this and so few people have/willing
Say What?  Are you referring to coding or documentation.  I have seen
many people offer to help with documentation and have been put off for
some reason or another.

Coding is all together another issue.  If I was proficient enough in the
language "C" I would help.  I asked the question because I have been
unable to build the project in months because of the cairo extensions.

I have a simple Redhat Linux Fedora 9 install and can't build.

If the goal is to have people use and build on it. It has to work.

I always love how people become so easily offended and defensive by
simple questions.

Eddie

> to donate the time to do something about it.
>
> - bob.
>
>
> Harald Thoeny wrote:
> > the documentation on the website is a mess !
> >
> > we had a thread on this list with frustrated doc writers....
> > myself is also waiting for a better doc system!
> >
> > greetings
> >
> > harald
> >
> > Madeleine D. wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Not really stale at all, just quiet on this list.  Those who have the
> >> skills are busy working on an update.  There's a lot of daily
> >> activity via kksou.com, some via Gnope.org and even more via IRC.
> >>
> >> I think part of the problem is the broken web site for gtk.php.net,
> >> which sends people off in different directions, but so far, no luck
> >> on getting fixed.
> >>
> >> Madeleine D.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Eddie L. Hixson wrote:
> >>> Has this project become stale?  What is the future of php-gtk?  I hear
> >>> no chatter from the list.
> >>>
> >>> Eddie
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>  
> >>
> >
>
>


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Re: Status of PHP-GTK

Elizabeth M Smith
Eddie L. Hixson wrote:
> On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 08:40 -0400, Bob Majdak Jr wrote:
>> I always love how so many people say this and so few people have/willing
> Say What?  Are you referring to coding or documentation.  I have seen
> many people offer to help with documentation and have been put off for
> some reason or another.

No one has been "put off" by anything - but when the things that NEED to
be done are listed people are scared off.  Unfortunately the docs are
not even in a condition where you can just "fill out information in
skeletons" atm.

For the documentation
1. all the docbook needs to be updated to Docbook 5 (it's at 3 now)
there are several people in php-gtk working on this, if you want to help
contact them (best place is freenode #php-gtk)

2. someone needs to write a PhD (system that php.net uses to render
docbook) theme for php-gtk (this would be an all PHP code project)

3. the documentation reflection generator needs to be updated to
generate the new documentation - again there are people working on this,
feel free to contact them in the php-gtk irc channel

4. the actual website needs to be updated with auto-rendering documentation

In fact this project was even offered as an idea for gsoc 2009 - sadly
no takers

http://wiki.php.net/gsoc/2009

I believe there is an svn repo set up with the documentation work.
Anyone willing to jump on irc, say hello, and offer some help will
gladly be recruited.

>
> Coding is all together another issue.  If I was proficient enough in the
> language "C" I would help.  I asked the question because I have been
> unable to build the project in months because of the cairo extensions.

You are free to build the 2.0.1 tag (php_gtk_2_0_1) instead - it doesn't
require cairo and works just fine.  There are very few changes in HEAD
at the moment, mainly the cairo support.

As for C, you don't have to be all that proficient to help on the
project - if you know the basics and can copy other people's code you
can help with overrides.

PHP-GTK could also do with an automake guru - there need to be some
changes made to the configure stuff for HEAD that are not yet completed,
but we don't currently have someone skilled enough at writing m4 macros ;)

>
> I have a simple Redhat Linux Fedora 9 install and can't build.
>
> If the goal is to have people use and build on it. It has to work.

If all you need is a stable build - that's what tags in cvs are for,
they are release versions (if you ever want a really fun time, try
building PHP CVS head on a regular basis - ah the unicode madness)

>
> I always love how people become so easily offended and defensive by
> simple questions.

Actually, a lot of times people forget that open-source is done by
volunteers who don't get paid for anything and have real lives just like
everyone else.  These volunteers also get inundated with whining -
people who are glad to tell you what's wrong and yet offer little help
in fixing it so they tend to be short tempered with those who genuinely
do care.

Remember, people are often glad to point you to the right places to
learn new things (C, docbook, PhD)

If you're interested in helping with php-gtk I'd HIGHLY suggest you
visit the IRC channel - it has a lot more going on than the mailing list
- or introduce yourself on the php.gtk.dev list and volunteer "I'm
willing to learn docbook/PhD/C and help out"

Thanks,
Elizabeth

>
> Eddie
>> to donate the time to do something about it.
>>
>> - bob.
>>
>>
>> Harald Thoeny wrote:
>>> the documentation on the website is a mess !
>>>
>>> we had a thread on this list with frustrated doc writers....
>>> myself is also waiting for a better doc system!
>>>
>>> greetings
>>>
>>> harald
>>>
>>> Madeleine D. wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Not really stale at all, just quiet on this list.  Those who have the
>>>> skills are busy working on an update.  There's a lot of daily
>>>> activity via kksou.com, some via Gnope.org and even more via IRC.
>>>>
>>>> I think part of the problem is the broken web site for gtk.php.net,
>>>> which sends people off in different directions, but so far, no luck
>>>> on getting fixed.
>>>>
>>>> Madeleine D.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Eddie L. Hixson wrote:
>>>>> Has this project become stale?  What is the future of php-gtk?  I hear
>>>>> no chatter from the list.
>>>>>
>>>>> Eddie
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  
>>
>

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Re: Status of PHP-GTK

Bob Majdak Jr-2
In reply to this post by Eddie L. Hixson
Coding is really limping along just fine. Tonnes of people hate the
docs, less than tonnes offer to help,  none of them actually do. Granted
extra coders would help but patch writers are easier to come across than
people actually willing to do the docs. And the coders can usually
figure out what to do by knowing  GTK in C or by looking at the C GTK
manual.

The PHP doc system i am sure is not going anywhere, and personally I
like comments off, it is a manual not a wbe forum.  That is one of the
things I hate the most about the actual PHP docs, especally when a new
guy posts a code sample that is horrid and the next 20 posts are people
saying "oh hay i made this better". I am not being bitter. Honest.

- bob


Eddie L. Hixson wrote:

> On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 08:40 -0400, Bob Majdak Jr wrote:
>  
>> I always love how so many people say this and so few people have/willing
>>    
> Say What?  Are you referring to coding or documentation.  I have seen
> many people offer to help with documentation and have been put off for
> some reason or another.
>
> Coding is all together another issue.  If I was proficient enough in the
> language "C" I would help.  I asked the question because I have been
> unable to build the project in months because of the cairo extensions.
>
> I have a simple Redhat Linux Fedora 9 install and can't build.
>
> If the goal is to have people use and build on it. It has to work.
>
> I always love how people become so easily offended and defensive by
> simple questions.
>
> Eddie
>  
>> to donate the time to do something about it.
>>
>> - bob.
>>
>>
>> Harald Thoeny wrote:
>>    
>>> the documentation on the website is a mess !
>>>
>>> we had a thread on this list with frustrated doc writers....
>>> myself is also waiting for a better doc system!
>>>
>>> greetings
>>>
>>> harald
>>>
>>> Madeleine D. wrote:
>>>      
>>>> Not really stale at all, just quiet on this list.  Those who have the
>>>> skills are busy working on an update.  There's a lot of daily
>>>> activity via kksou.com, some via Gnope.org and even more via IRC.
>>>>
>>>> I think part of the problem is the broken web site for gtk.php.net,
>>>> which sends people off in different directions, but so far, no luck
>>>> on getting fixed.
>>>>
>>>> Madeleine D.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Eddie L. Hixson wrote:
>>>>        
>>>>> Has this project become stale?  What is the future of php-gtk?  I hear
>>>>> no chatter from the list.
>>>>>
>>>>> Eddie
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  
>>>>>          
>>    
>
>  


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Re: Status of PHP-GTK

Steph-8
In reply to this post by Elizabeth M Smith
Elizabeth M Smith wrote:
> Eddie L. Hixson wrote:
>> On Wed, 2009-04-15 at 08:40 -0400, Bob Majdak Jr wrote:
>>> I always love how so many people say this and so few people have/willing

Ain't that the truth.
 
>> Say What?  Are you referring to coding or documentation.  I have seen
>> many people offer to help with documentation and have been put off for
>> some reason or another.

This isn't.

> No one has been "put off" by anything - but when the things that NEED to
> be done are listed people are scared off.  Unfortunately the docs are
> not even in a condition where you can just "fill out information in
> skeletons" atm.

That's very odd. Three years ago they were in such condition, but nobody wanted to do the work then either. Loads of would-be translators, but precious few actual manual contributions once Christian and I had moved on. The manual was always auto-generated following any changes, and this is the first I've heard that it no longer works for the English edition. All I ever hear about is broken notes.

The manual currently uses an adaptation of DocBook 3.17, and we have been through two new documentation-building projects for php.net manuals since that build system was written. The first of those projects (livedocs) would have required a complete rewrite to work properly with PHP-GTK docs purely because PHP documentation/DocBook isn't geared to objects; we got livedocs to build, but not to be useful. I agree that phd is a far better phpdoc build system (much faster rendering, no extended tools required for manual generation) but would dispute the need for a move to DocBook 5/phd just to get manual entries written. It's more a 'nice-to-have' than an imperative, and I recall both myself and Christian wasting a lot of time over livedocs that could have been better invested elsewhere. Both livedocs and phd assume a 'pure' DocBook base. See the ML archives for the problems with that when it comes to PHP-GTK (2001 and 2004-5).

> For the documentation
> 1. all the docbook needs to be updated to Docbook 5 (it's at 3 now)

I believe there was some reason we didn't make the move to DocBook 4 in the first place, since it was originally in the plans. Check the ML archives.

> there are several people in php-gtk working on this, if you want to help
> contact them (best place is freenode #php-gtk)
>
<snip />
>
> PHP-GTK could also do with an automake guru - there need to be some
> changes made to the configure stuff for HEAD that are not yet completed,
> but we don't currently have someone skilled enough at writing m4 macros ;)

Jani has been known to assist when we ask nicely and/or mention the need somewhere in public space. Not that m4 macros are horribly difficult, it's just when you need something to build across a wide range of systems it gets complicated. Jani has over a decade of making PHP build on a toaster behind him; you aren't going to find anyone who knows more. So really it's a case of getting PHP-GTK to build on the systems you have access to (Linux/MacOSX), and then asking for his help to broaden the range.

>> I have a simple Redhat Linux Fedora 9 install and can't build.
>>
>> If the goal is to have people use and build on it. It has to work.
>
> If all you need is a stable build - that's what tags in cvs are for,
> they are release versions (if you ever want a really fun time, try
> building PHP CVS head on a regular basis - ah the unicode madness)

Are you trying to put people off? ;)
I think what the OP was saying is that he's installed a RH package rather than built PHP-GTK from scratch. This would be the Linux equivalent of downloading a binary. (These days, it's possible to run Linux desktop and not have access to a compiler... madness IMHO, but there you go.)

<snip />
>
> If you're interested in helping with php-gtk I'd HIGHLY suggest you
> visit the IRC channel - it has a lot more going on than the mailing list
> - or introduce yourself on the php.gtk.dev list and volunteer "I'm
> willing to learn docbook/PhD/C and help out"

IRC shouldn't have a lot more going on than the mailing list, full stop, because it means there is no way for anyone outside the current working group to know what's going on. I for one had no idea any of the projects you mentioned above were under way; I only knew about Madeleine's ongoing quest for notes, and that's because she keeps the ML informed. And the OP thought PHP-GTK was a dead project.

- Steph

>
> Thanks,
> Elizabeth
>
>> Eddie
>>> to donate the time to do something about it.
>>>
>>> - bob.
>>>
>>>
>>> Harald Thoeny wrote:
>>>> the documentation on the website is a mess !
>>>>
>>>> we had a thread on this list with frustrated doc writers....
>>>> myself is also waiting for a better doc system!
>>>>
>>>> greetings
>>>>
>>>> harald
>>>>
>>>> Madeleine D. wrote:
>>>>> Not really stale at all, just quiet on this list.  Those who have the
>>>>> skills are busy working on an update.  There's a lot of daily
>>>>> activity via kksou.com, some via Gnope.org and even more via IRC.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think part of the problem is the broken web site for gtk.php.net,
>>>>> which sends people off in different directions, but so far, no luck
>>>>> on getting fixed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Madeleine D.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Eddie L. Hixson wrote:
>>>>>> Has this project become stale?  What is the future of php-gtk?  I hear
>>>>>> no chatter from the list.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Eddie
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  
>

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Re: Status of PHP-GTK

Madeleine D.-3


Steph wrote:
>
> IRC shouldn't have a lot more going on than the mailing list, full
> stop, because it means there is no way for anyone outside the current
> working group to know what's going on. I for one had no idea any of
> the projects you mentioned above were under way; I only knew about
> Madeleine's ongoing quest for notes, and that's because she keeps the
> ML informed. And the OP thought PHP-GTK was a dead project.
>
> - Steph




I totally agree about the IRC.  I know it appeals to some, but I've
gotten so much more from the list over the years.  The archives make it
invaluable.  And it's the first resource listed on the Web Site, so it's
the first stop for newbies.

Madeleine D.








>>
>> Thanks,
>> Elizabeth
>>
>>> Eddie
>>>> to donate the time to do something about it.
>>>>
>>>> - bob.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Harald Thoeny wrote:
>>>>> the documentation on the website is a mess !
>>>>>
>>>>> we had a thread on this list with frustrated doc writers....
>>>>> myself is also waiting for a better doc system!
>>>>>
>>>>> greetings
>>>>>
>>>>> harald
>>>>>
>>>>> Madeleine D. wrote:
>>>>>> Not really stale at all, just quiet on this list.  Those who have
>>>>>> the skills are busy working on an update.  There's a lot of daily
>>>>>> activity via kksou.com, some via Gnope.org and even more via IRC.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think part of the problem is the broken web site for
>>>>>> gtk.php.net, which sends people off in different directions, but
>>>>>> so far, no luck on getting fixed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Madeleine D.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Eddie L. Hixson wrote:
>>>>>>> Has this project become stale?  What is the future of php-gtk?  
>>>>>>> I hear
>>>>>>> no chatter from the list.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Eddie
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  
>>
>

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Re: Status of PHP-GTK

Bob Majdak Jr-2
>> IRC shouldn't have a lot more going on than the mailing list, full stop,

> I totally agree about the IRC.  I know it appeals to some

And that is why you two fail. But seriously. Especially when we are
trouble shooting mailing lists are usless when we want to get it done
NOW. why do we want to get it done NOW? Because that exact moment is
the first moment we had free from real life all week. If I have to
wait a day for a mailing list reply, it is screwed until next week.

- bob

On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 1:20 PM, Madeleine D. <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> Steph wrote:
>>
>> IRC shouldn't have a lot more going on than the mailing list, full stop,
>> because it means there is no way for anyone outside the current working
>> group to know what's going on. I for one had no idea any of the projects you
>> mentioned above were under way; I only knew about Madeleine's ongoing quest
>> for notes, and that's because she keeps the ML informed. And the OP thought
>> PHP-GTK was a dead project.
>>
>> - Steph
>
>
>
>
> I totally agree about the IRC.  I know it appeals to some, but I've gotten
> so much more from the list over the years.  The archives make it invaluable.
>  And it's the first resource listed on the Web Site, so it's the first stop
> for newbies.
>
> Madeleine D.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Elizabeth
>>>
>>>> Eddie
>>>>>
>>>>> to donate the time to do something about it.
>>>>>
>>>>> - bob.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Harald Thoeny wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the documentation on the website is a mess !
>>>>>>
>>>>>> we had a thread on this list with frustrated doc writers....
>>>>>> myself is also waiting for a better doc system!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> greetings
>>>>>>
>>>>>> harald
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Madeleine D. wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not really stale at all, just quiet on this list.  Those who have the
>>>>>>> skills are busy working on an update.  There's a lot of daily activity via
>>>>>>> kksou.com, some via Gnope.org and even more via IRC.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think part of the problem is the broken web site for gtk.php.net,
>>>>>>> which sends people off in different directions, but so far, no luck on
>>>>>>> getting fixed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Madeleine D.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Eddie L. Hixson wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Has this project become stale?  What is the future of php-gtk?  I
>>>>>>>> hear
>>>>>>>> no chatter from the list.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Eddie
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>
>>
>
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>
>

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Re: Status of PHP-GTK

Benjamin Smith-6
In reply to this post by Bob Majdak Jr-2
I offer some counter points, here...

On Wednesday 15 April 2009 06:53:48 Bob Majdak Jr wrote:
> Coding is really limping along just fine. Tonnes of people hate the
> docs, less than tonnes offer to help,  none of them actually do.

Sometime ago, I was offered the opportunity to update the docs, and was
picturing that it would be something like a fancy wiki or somesuch. Instead, I
was introduced to text files with a very complicated tagging system and a steep
learning curve. I don't remember what it was, it's been a few years, and I'm
sure there are good reasons for choosing it.

After struggling for some hours over a few days on it (and even starting a
docs editor in PHP-GTK to manage some of the complexity) I threw in the towel
and resigned myself to leaving (hopefully helpful) comments.

Can this be made simpler? Do you know of some kind of doc-editor manager
doohickey to take track all the tagging?

> Granted
> extra coders would help but patch writers are easier to come across than
> people actually willing to do the docs. And the coders can usually
> figure out what to do by knowing  GTK in C or by looking at the C GTK
> manual.

Get_class_methods() and get_object_vars(), and Google are my substitutes. I
make it a point to leave notes when I can.

> The PHP doc system i am sure is not going anywhere, and personally I
> like comments off, it is a manual not a wbe forum.  That is one of the
> things I hate the most about the actual PHP docs, especally when a new
> guy posts a code sample that is horrid and the next 20 posts are people
> saying "oh hay i made this better". I am not being bitter. Honest.

It's common for me to be baffled by minimalist docs, only to find a comment that
makes it all clear... I'm perfectly willing to ignore the crappy, 3-page-long
code samples in order to have the nuggets that make my day! And sometimes,
even the 3-page-long crappy code gives enough detail about how to use XYX
function that it's useful.

...perhaps a moderation system for comments?

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Re: Status of PHP-GTK

Keith Roberts-4

On Wed, 15 Apr 2009, Benjamin Smith wrote:

> To: [hidden email]
> From: Benjamin Smith <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [PHP-GTK] Status of PHP-GTK
>
> I offer some counter points, here...
>
> On Wednesday 15 April 2009 06:53:48 Bob Majdak Jr wrote:
>> Coding is really limping along just fine. Tonnes of people hate the
>> docs, less than tonnes offer to help,  none of them actually do.
>
> Sometime ago, I was offered the opportunity to update the docs, and was
> picturing that it would be something like a fancy wiki or somesuch. Instead, I
> was introduced to text files with a very complicated tagging system and a steep
> learning curve. I don't remember what it was, it's been a few years, and I'm
> sure there are good reasons for choosing it.
>
> After struggling for some hours over a few days on it (and even starting a
> docs editor in PHP-GTK to manage some of the complexity) I threw in the towel
> and resigned myself to leaving (hopefully helpful) comments.
>
> Can this be made simpler? Do you know of some kind of doc-editor manager
> doohickey to take track all the tagging?

Maybe something like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LyX

would suffice, if only PDF documentation was needed?

Kind Regards,

Keith Roberts

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>
>> Granted
>> extra coders would help but patch writers are easier to come across than
>> people actually willing to do the docs. And the coders can usually
>> figure out what to do by knowing  GTK in C or by looking at the C GTK
>> manual.
>
> Get_class_methods() and get_object_vars(), and Google are my substitutes. I
> make it a point to leave notes when I can.
>
>> The PHP doc system i am sure is not going anywhere, and personally I
>> like comments off, it is a manual not a wbe forum.  That is one of the
>> things I hate the most about the actual PHP docs, especally when a new
>> guy posts a code sample that is horrid and the next 20 posts are people
>> saying "oh hay i made this better". I am not being bitter. Honest.
>
> It's common for me to be baffled by minimalist docs, only to find a comment that
> makes it all clear... I'm perfectly willing to ignore the crappy, 3-page-long
> code samples in order to have the nuggets that make my day! And sometimes,
> even the 3-page-long crappy code gives enough detail about how to use XYX
> function that it's useful.
>
> ...perhaps a moderation system for comments?
>
> --
> This message has been scanned for viruses and
> dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
> believed to be clean.
>
>
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Re: Status of PHP-GTK

Elizabeth M Smith
In reply to this post by Benjamin Smith-6
Benjamin Smith wrote:

> I offer some counter points, here...
>
> On Wednesday 15 April 2009 06:53:48 Bob Majdak Jr wrote:
>> Coding is really limping along just fine. Tonnes of people hate the
>> docs, less than tonnes offer to help,  none of them actually do.
>
> Sometime ago, I was offered the opportunity to update the docs, and was
> picturing that it would be something like a fancy wiki or somesuch. Instead, I
> was introduced to text files with a very complicated tagging system and a steep
> learning curve. I don't remember what it was, it's been a few years, and I'm
> sure there are good reasons for choosing it.

It's docbook - standard markup for documentation. It's just XML
>
> After struggling for some hours over a few days on it (and even starting a
> docs editor in PHP-GTK to manage some of the complexity) I threw in the towel
> and resigned myself to leaving (hopefully helpful) comments.
>
> Can this be made simpler? Do you know of some kind of doc-editor manager
> doohickey to take track all the tagging?

Actually, if you look in PHP CVS there IS a new web frontend for php
documentation in development (it's just about done) however it doesn't
do PHP-GTK current docbook markup - which still doesn't help.

>
>> Granted
>> extra coders would help but patch writers are easier to come across than
>> people actually willing to do the docs. And the coders can usually
>> figure out what to do by knowing  GTK in C or by looking at the C GTK
>> manual.
>
> Get_class_methods() and get_object_vars(), and Google are my substitutes. I
> make it a point to leave notes when I can.
>
>> The PHP doc system i am sure is not going anywhere, and personally I
>> like comments off, it is a manual not a wbe forum.  That is one of the
>> things I hate the most about the actual PHP docs, especally when a new
>> guy posts a code sample that is horrid and the next 20 posts are people
>> saying "oh hay i made this better". I am not being bitter. Honest.
>
> It's common for me to be baffled by minimalist docs, only to find a comment that
> makes it all clear... I'm perfectly willing to ignore the crappy, 3-page-long
> code samples in order to have the nuggets that make my day! And sometimes,
> even the 3-page-long crappy code gives enough detail about how to use XYX
> function that it's useful.
>
> ...perhaps a moderation system for comments?
>

Moderation might be the best solution - however finding someone with the
time and energy to do the moderation - and keep doing the moderation ...
that might take some doing.

Thanks,
Elizabeth Smith

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Re: Status of PHP-GTK

Bob Majdak Jr-2
In reply to this post by Keith Roberts-4
Even if PHP.NET would allow any of these options, who is going to
implement it? And then who is going to populate it? It might get done
at first, but I would be willing to wager it gets done once and just
like the current docs once it is out of date everyone disappears.
(Actually, I wager it gets half done).

I have no idea what the current system is like, I just know somewhere
someone is making the executive decision to stay with what is there.

- bob

On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 4:53 PM, Keith Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Wed, 15 Apr 2009, Benjamin Smith wrote:
>
>> To: [hidden email]
>> From: Benjamin Smith <[hidden email]>
>> Subject: Re: [PHP-GTK] Status of PHP-GTK
>>
>> I offer some counter points, here...
>>
>> On Wednesday 15 April 2009 06:53:48 Bob Majdak Jr wrote:
>>>
>>> Coding is really limping along just fine. Tonnes of people hate the
>>> docs, less than tonnes offer to help,  none of them actually do.
>>
>> Sometime ago, I was offered the opportunity to update the docs, and was
>> picturing that it would be something like a fancy wiki or somesuch.
>> Instead, I
>> was introduced to text files with a very complicated tagging system and a
>> steep
>> learning curve. I don't remember what it was, it's been a few years, and
>> I'm
>> sure there are good reasons for choosing it.
>>
>> After struggling for some hours over a few days on it (and even starting a
>> docs editor in PHP-GTK to manage some of the complexity) I threw in the
>> towel
>> and resigned myself to leaving (hopefully helpful) comments.
>>
>> Can this be made simpler? Do you know of some kind of doc-editor manager
>> doohickey to take track all the tagging?
>
> Maybe something like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LyX
>
> would suffice, if only PDF documentation was needed?
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Keith Roberts
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> Websites:
> http://www.php-debuggers.net
> http://www.karsites.net
> http://www.raised-from-the-dead.org.uk
>
> All email addresses are challenge-response protected with
> TMDA [http://tmda.net]
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>>> Granted
>>> extra coders would help but patch writers are easier to come across than
>>> people actually willing to do the docs. And the coders can usually
>>> figure out what to do by knowing  GTK in C or by looking at the C GTK
>>> manual.
>>
>> Get_class_methods() and get_object_vars(), and Google are my substitutes.
>> I
>> make it a point to leave notes when I can.
>>
>>> The PHP doc system i am sure is not going anywhere, and personally I
>>> like comments off, it is a manual not a wbe forum.  That is one of the
>>> things I hate the most about the actual PHP docs, especally when a new
>>> guy posts a code sample that is horrid and the next 20 posts are people
>>> saying "oh hay i made this better". I am not being bitter. Honest.
>>
>> It's common for me to be baffled by minimalist docs, only to find a
>> comment that
>> makes it all clear... I'm perfectly willing to ignore the crappy,
>> 3-page-long
>> code samples in order to have the nuggets that make my day! And sometimes,
>> even the 3-page-long crappy code gives enough detail about how to use XYX
>> function that it's useful.
>>
>> ...perhaps a moderation system for comments?
>>
>> --
>> This message has been scanned for viruses and
>> dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
>> believed to be clean.
>>
>>
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Re: Status of PHP-GTK

Andre Colomb
In reply to this post by Bob Majdak Jr-2
Bob Majdak Jr wrote:
> people actually willing to do the docs. And the coders can usually
> figure out what to do by knowing  GTK in C or by looking at the C GTK
> manual.

I have been stuck on a few problems I could eventually figure out with
the help of the C GTK manual. However, sharing the solution that seems
so obvious once you know it, is also a way of giving back to the community.

> The PHP doc system i am sure is not going anywhere, and personally I
> like comments off, it is a manual not a wbe forum.  That is one of the
> things I hate the most about the actual PHP docs, especally when a new
> guy posts a code sample that is horrid and the next 20 posts are people
> saying "oh hay i made this better". I am not being bitter. Honest.

I agree with you in that it is very annoying to scroll through tens or
hundreds of posts commenting other people's sample code. But there is
still kksou's website and it seems very successful. So if the comments
ever work, there could be a note on the "new comment" page that sample
codes don't belong here but at kksou.com instead. Besides, I don't think
there are as many newbies at work with PHP-Gtk as with PHP.

The only way I found to share my knowledge was either kksou.com or the
mailing list. When I offered to update the glade tutorial in the docs,
the resources I found and the hints on IRC helped me get to the manual
source code, but I couldn't even manage to build it. Nor get my head
around the whole structure. I do know C and DocBook but I ain't got all
day, so in my opinion, it is just way too complicated to get started
with the current docs system.

That said, there seems to be the need for a public place to share
PHP-Gtk revelations. Here are my thoughts on it:

1. IRC without logs is pretty useless to the outside world. I do
acknowledge and appreciate the quick help though. Could someone easily
provide IRC logs on the web? Wasn't there a bot regular on the channel?
It could also track the channel topic now that we can set it again.

2. The mailing list should definitely be informed of any planned changes
or discovered solutions IMHO. It is the usual place for anyone to start
looking. If 1. was implemented, a link to the IRC log date or topic
start would be a good start.

3. Updating the manual is hard to get started with. Someone with
experience could regularly add notes and hints with the conclusions of
current ML threads.

4. Making docs comments work seems to be non-trivial, I would dump them
in favor of 3.

Concerning the state of the manual: What would it take to fix the build
system? It worked at one time, but all I hear is that it needs to be
updated to DocBook V5. Whoever broke it should just fix the damn thing
so the old DocBook V3 sources can still be maintained. After all, it is
in a VCS where one can go back in time, right? I don't see a realistic
chance that anybody will step up and rewrite the whole manual just for
fun. Besides, there is still the problem with OOP support in DocBook I
presume?

I know I'm only saying what "should be done". If there was an easy way,
I'd gladly help with the documentation. Until then, I'll just try to
post whatever problems (and solutions) I come across to the ML and other
public places. Unfortunately I don't have the time to work on the big
problems, so this is my way to contribute.

All developers, keep up the nice work even if it's in the shadows to the
common subscriber :-)

Regards, Andre
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Re: Status of PHP-GTK

Elizabeth M Smith

> 1. IRC without logs is pretty useless to the outside world. I do
> acknowledge and appreciate the quick help though. Could someone easily
> provide IRC logs on the web? Wasn't there a bot regular on the channel?
> It could also track the channel topic now that we can set it again.

There's a bot in the channel, everything is logged, however there are
privacy concerns with making those logs available publicly.  Someone
going through and manually compiling a faq from answered questions would
be nice.  I don't have the time to do it - are you volunteering?

> 2. The mailing list should definitely be informed of any planned changes
> or discovered solutions IMHO. It is the usual place for anyone to start
> looking. If 1. was implemented, a link to the IRC log date or topic
> start would be a good start.

Again, this takes time and energy - are you volunteering?

> 3. Updating the manual is hard to get started with. Someone with
> experience could regularly add notes and hints with the conclusions of
> current ML threads.

Again - this takes someone actually doing the work. You volunteering?

> 4. Making docs comments work seems to be non-trivial, I would dump them
> in favor of 3.
>
> Concerning the state of the manual: What would it take to fix the build
> system? It worked at one time, but all I hear is that it needs to be
> updated to DocBook V5. Whoever broke it should just fix the damn thing
> so the old DocBook V3 sources can still be maintained. After all, it is
> in a VCS where one can go back in time, right? I don't see a realistic
> chance that anybody will step up and rewrite the whole manual just for
> fun. Besides, there is still the problem with OOP support in DocBook I
> presume?

Actually the docbook 5 stuff and php.net have implemented some pretty
nice OOP stuff - read the php manual lately?

As for who broke it - I'm not entirely sure.  The issue isn't the code,
it's the server.  Docs will build manually on a local system.  They
don't build on the site.  Something to with system administrators and
their need to upgrade things was my last understanding of why the builds
are broken.  I'm not a sysadmin, nor do I have any desire to be one or
chase developers until I find one who has root...

Steph - do you even know what box gtk.php.net is sitting on at the
moment? There was a bunch of php website reshuffling....

> I know I'm only saying what "should be done". If there was an easy way,
> I'd gladly help with the documentation. Until then, I'll just try to
> post whatever problems (and solutions) I come across to the ML and other
> public places. Unfortunately I don't have the time to work on the big
> problems, so this is my way to contribute.
>
> All developers, keep up the nice work even if it's in the shadows to the
> common subscriber :-)

> Regards, Andre

Thanks,
Elizabeth

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Re: Status of PHP-GTK

Steph-8
In reply to this post by Bob Majdak Jr-2
Bob Majdak Jr wrote:
>>> IRC shouldn't have a lot more going on than the mailing list, full stop,
>
>> I totally agree about the IRC.  I know it appeals to some
>
> And that is why you two fail.

Except that I filled half the first manual single-handedly and wrote the build system for the second. I've been out of it 3 years and now what's going down?

But seriously. Especially when we are
> trouble shooting mailing lists are usless when we want to get it done
> NOW. why do we want to get it done NOW? Because that exact moment is
> the first moment we had free from real life all week. If I have to
> wait a day for a mailing list reply, it is screwed until next week.

Trouble shooting, yes, sure, use IRC. Planning major changes is a whole different thing.

- Steph

>
> - bob
>
> On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 1:20 PM, Madeleine D. <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Steph wrote:
>>> IRC shouldn't have a lot more going on than the mailing list, full stop,
>>> because it means there is no way for anyone outside the current working
>>> group to know what's going on. I for one had no idea any of the projects you
>>> mentioned above were under way; I only knew about Madeleine's ongoing quest
>>> for notes, and that's because she keeps the ML informed. And the OP thought
>>> PHP-GTK was a dead project.
>>>
>>> - Steph
>>
>>
>>
>> I totally agree about the IRC.  I know it appeals to some, but I've gotten
>> so much more from the list over the years.  The archives make it invaluable.
>>  And it's the first resource listed on the Web Site, so it's the first stop
>> for newbies.
>>
>> Madeleine D.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Elizabeth
>>>>
>>>>> Eddie
>>>>>> to donate the time to do something about it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - bob.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Harald Thoeny wrote:
>>>>>>> the documentation on the website is a mess !
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> we had a thread on this list with frustrated doc writers....
>>>>>>> myself is also waiting for a better doc system!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> greetings
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> harald
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Madeleine D. wrote:
>>>>>>>> Not really stale at all, just quiet on this list.  Those who have the
>>>>>>>> skills are busy working on an update.  There's a lot of daily activity via
>>>>>>>> kksou.com, some via Gnope.org and even more via IRC.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think part of the problem is the broken web site for gtk.php.net,
>>>>>>>> which sends people off in different directions, but so far, no luck on
>>>>>>>> getting fixed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Madeleine D.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Eddie L. Hixson wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Has this project become stale?  What is the future of php-gtk?  I
>>>>>>>>> hear
>>>>>>>>> no chatter from the list.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Eddie
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
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>>
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Re: Status of PHP-GTK

Steph-8
In reply to this post by Benjamin Smith-6
Benjamin Smith wrote:

> I offer some counter points, here...
>
> On Wednesday 15 April 2009 06:53:48 Bob Majdak Jr wrote:
>> Coding is really limping along just fine. Tonnes of people hate the
>> docs, less than tonnes offer to help,  none of them actually do.
>
> Sometime ago, I was offered the opportunity to update the docs, and was
> picturing that it would be something like a fancy wiki or somesuch. Instead, I
> was introduced to text files with a very complicated tagging system and a steep
> learning curve. I don't remember what it was, it's been a few years, and I'm
> sure there are good reasons for choosing it.

That's DocBook, and the original reason for using it - as now apparently - was to stay in line with the PHP Manual proper. Livedocs was an attempt at addressing the complexity; phd is an attempt to reduce the need for external tools and hence the learning curve, but you still need to be able to use DocBook XML in order to write manual content for php.net.
 
> After struggling for some hours over a few days on it (and even starting a
> docs editor in PHP-GTK to manage some of the complexity) I threw in the towel
> and resigned myself to leaving (hopefully helpful) comments.
>
> Can this be made simpler? Do you know of some kind of doc-editor manager
> doohickey to take track all the tagging?

Nope. (Doesn't mean there aren't any, just means I don't know of any.)

>> Granted
>> extra coders would help but patch writers are easier to come across than
>> people actually willing to do the docs. And the coders can usually
>> figure out what to do by knowing  GTK in C or by looking at the C GTK
>> manual.
>
> Get_class_methods() and get_object_vars(), and Google are my substitutes. I
> make it a point to leave notes when I can.

Yes, and yours were reliably good notes too.

>> The PHP doc system i am sure is not going anywhere, and personally I
>> like comments off, it is a manual not a wbe forum.  That is one of the
>> things I hate the most about the actual PHP docs, especally when a new
>> guy posts a code sample that is horrid and the next 20 posts are people
>> saying "oh hay i made this better". I am not being bitter. Honest.
>
> It's common for me to be baffled by minimalist docs, only to find a comment that
> makes it all clear... I'm perfectly willing to ignore the crappy, 3-page-long
> code samples in order to have the nuggets that make my day! And sometimes,
> even the 3-page-long crappy code gives enough detail about how to use XYX
> function that it's useful.
>
> ...perhaps a moderation system for comments?

That's the thing I was writing when I ran out of time (which is why there aren't notes now). At that point, the PHP Manual notes system had been taken down by spammers and we also didn't have access to master.php.net for PHP-GTK Manual notes administration. So I started out writing a lightweight system that could be hosted on 'our' server, but then work went a bit mad and that was the end of that project. The entire PHP-GTK website was already in a bad way at that point - it just hadn't had any love since inception - so although getting notes live shouldn't be a major task at this point, nobody's going to be able to look at the site code without feeling swamped by need-to-do's. I suspect this is the point Maddy reached.

Notes administration itself is an ongoing and time-consuming job, and there are never enough volunteers for it regards the PHP Manual. (NB Notes admin is _much_ easier than writing docs.)

- Steph


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